#just made content specifically to spite the major ship shippers

[ladywaterfall]

Remember that time years ago when I posted about how much I loved g3 and their designs, and some brony commented how I totally made the post specifically to troll and get attention from bronies? bc I couldn’t possibly just make a sincere post about loving what I collect?? wild times to be a collector

[subjecta5newtella]

thoughts on newtmas :) go on :) i’m listening :)

sami rly said ok time for violence. this is going to be so long sorry everyone.

if we’re talking newtmas itself as a ship in itself, outside of any other influence (and specifically in the movie version, which is generally what people are talking about), I think it’s a good ship. I would have to be the most unobservant motherfucker alive to not see what people see in it, and I am not, in fact, the most unobservant motherfucker alive. it’s a good dynamic with good chemistry and realistically I think if I’d started with the movies rather than the books, I would’ve gone all in for it.

however. I personally am incapable about talking about it in isolation.

I realize from that segue it sounds like I’m about to lead into some grand moral point, but mostly I just liked how dramatic it sounded. anyway. I feel like I need to start with a disclaimer that the easiest, simplest part of this is that you tend to get attached to your first ships in a fandom, as well as your initial feelings about the characters. obviously you can change your mind about any of those things, but it does stick with you. if we’re going to be kind and skip my internalized homophobia era (please be kind), I shipped thominho and nalby because that’s what was big at the time. I also just... did not like book thomas very much, so I wasn’t about to ship him with my favorite character.

(complete and utter tangent: it’s interesting to me that people read the books now and overwhelmingly see newtmas. I recognize that every time I start a sentence with “it’s interesting that” it automatically sounds shady, but i genuinely just love Analyzing. anyway some of it’s definitely people seeing the movie first or having fandom content as a first exposure even in passing, all of which are valid ways to engage, but I do kind of find it fascinating when people talk about book!newtmas as some massive presence because then... theoretically we all should’ve seen it pre-movies? the ship existed, usually among people who hardcore multishipped, but it wasn’t anything like it is today. not at all to say that reading it like that is invalid, it’s just interesting to me the way some people talk about that interpretation, rather than the interpretation itself)

anyway. with that all out of the way, i do have some actual issues with newtmas, although it really doesn’t have anything to do with the characters or the ship itself. these are things that surround the ship and affect my feelings about it, meaning that I never bought in despite, like I said, Seeing It. my main issue with it is how much the roles of other characters have been reduced to create the ship in its current form. I’ve talked at far too much length about the way minho was adapted and honestly will probably talk about it more, because that’s the big one to me (that post can be found here, for those who don’t keep up with every rant I’ve ever gone on for some reason). I will not go so far as to say that’s required reading to fully understand this post, but I would recommend it since I don’t want to just repeat myself. so much of newtmas being the major ship feels like it’s predicated on minho not being there and not having anywhere near as strong a relationship with thomas and newt as he did in the books, and that will never sit right with me.

newt’s relationship with alby is his other most significant dynamic outside thomas and minho, and i feel like it might be surprising to hear me say this, but i get why that one was reduced for the movie. there’s only so much time in the film, so you want to focus on the characters who are going to make it past the first one. I do have a problem here, but it has more to do with dashner and with some fandom bullshit. with dashner, i think the crank palace is the worst of it (I could’ve just stopped that sentence at “I think the crank palace is the worst” but whatever). since all my rants lead back to each other, I’ll link the relevant one here, but the general gist is that my biggest problem was that newt does not seem to have any more of a post-swipe past than thomas does despite theoretically having two more years of memories. given that fact, I don’t know about you, but I would kind of expect alby to be more of a presence in his consciousness. that’s true of pretty much any of the original gladers, but newt and alby are clearly very close in the first book, and again, alby saved his fucking life. he’s literally mentioned once. dashner prioritized the newt/thomas dynamic so much that newt seemingly had no meaningful relationships with anyone else. tcp isn’t immune to treating minho badly either; like I said in that post, it sounds like newt read the wikipedia page on minho. is any of this the fault of the ship itself? does this change anything that came before it? no, but the whole thing feels massively disingenuous, and also kind of disrespectful to people who actually, like, gave a shit about the other characters. also, the way he’s retconning makes me real nervous.

the other part, like I mentioned, is the fandom more than any of the actual content. I’m aware that part of this is just a statistics game and also that’s it’s not representative of all newtmas shippers, but most of the alby bashing I’ve seen comes from newtmas people. it’s... baffling to me, honestly. what’s the point in putting down a ship being kept alive by me and like 3 other people? what do you gain by misrepresenting a character to the point of maliciousness when you could easily just not engage with them? again, I know it’s not everyone and it doesn’t have anything to do with the ship, but I’d be lying if I said things like this don’t color my perception. if someone goes out of their way to put down a ship I like, I’m not really gonna want to associate myself with their ship. I’m gonna cling to my own harder out of spite, actually.

also.... okay. so I peaced out to go do other shit between earlyish 2015 and mid 2019. and it was very weird to temporarily leave the fandom while the two main (in my recollection at least, which could be biased by who i was friends with) mlm ships each included one of the explicitly non-white characters, and come back to find it almost entirely dominated by white boy/white boy... like. I don’t wanna make a statement as simple as “the fandom is racist” because a) it’s not my place to say that, b) if we want to go into that, there are other examples of fandom racism where it’s Blatant and there really is no excuse, whereas this is a bit more complicated imo because c) like. that’s the dynamic the movies gave us. the movies focused very heavily on the newt and thomas dynamic, so of course that’s what the fandom is going to focus on. there’s a lot to say there, but that’s a different issue. it does.... still contribute to the bad taste in my mouth, though, and also contributes to me feeling like I need to keep those ships alive. it’s not about who has the Most Progressive Ship, I just feel weird about the particular shift I’ve seen here.

on a note that sounds less like I’m leveling accusations, New Relationships just aren’t my vibe. you look at my ao3 and it’s like. friends of many years to lovers. established relationship. friends to lovers to exes and back again. just from a dynamics perspective, there are other ships that are more interesting for me to explore. there. this is a lighter reason.

idk overall I don’t wanna sound like I’m on some Moral Crusade here, even though i know some of my points made it sound like that. this is really just me putting all of my thoughts that I can currently round up in one place in order to... idk, explain myself? and like it’s stupid that i feel the need to explain myself, but I know it’s weird not to ship it at this point, and I know if I did I would have so much more content to choose from and a much wider audience for my own content. there’s just baggage there thats entirely separate from the ship itself, having seen the shift and knowing what had to change in order to center newtmas. I’m not trying to sound like I’m better than anyone; I just think maybe I have a different perspective on things having been here for long enough to qualify it as a new mental illness, and that’s ultimately why I feel the way I do.

[ghostmartyr]

...I have lost my temper, so this is all going under a cut despite the fact that some of it clearly needs to be shouted into people’s ears. This is pure hate for a fandom I am not part of, because I hate it. Reasonableness not found.

It’s about ship hate.

Specifically, shipper hate. And why NO.

Buckle the fuck in.

...So I don’t spend time in the fandom anymore. I hate it.

But I unfortunately have friends. So I hear stuff.

So. Uh.

I despise the Eren and Historia ship with all of my heart.

Meanwhile, the people who also hate it are so fucking loud and obnoxious that I can’t hate it in peace without feeling tainted by their inability to leave people the fuck alone.

(ETA: ...Several hours later, wow. I was not kidding about losing my temper. The below was crossed out originally, and for the sake of continuity I won’t delete it, but good grief, me. Calm down. You’re not helping.)

Stop sending people hate. You take away my ability to peacefully fantasize about my NOTP burning to a fucking crisp, and you make the general perception in the fandom that anyone who cares about queer rep in the fandom is a raving jackass.

Is that remotely true? No. Does fandom perception function on truth? Also no.

Also, when people get hate, spite becomes a motivator.

Thanks guys. You’ve made the fandom even more full of that thing we can’t stand. Wow, gee, why are so many more people in favor of this ship I hate now?

Gee, I fucking wonder.

People do not stop being invested because you send them hate. Or they do, which is actually awful. Fandom’s fun. It is supposed to be fun. Let the people who haven’t completely fallen to the hate in their hearts actually have a good fucking time and leave them the fuck alone.

I hate this ship. So fucking much. But do you know what happens when I try to hate it at the moment? I feel guilty! Because every single person who actually likes it has to put up with this crap! You people being assholes is interfering with my quiet, simmering hate, and it’s annoying.

(I got calmer as things went on, so that’s crossed out in the spirit of giving people the option of ignoring the vitriol. ...There’s. Still a lot of vitriol. But. The above is probably the worst?)

And you know what? If canon were to actually make it a thing, yeah, there would be some very serious reasons to complain. But you know what else? Right now, you’re complaining about something that isn’t canon. Because it is not fucking canon. You aren’t complaining about a worrying trope within a product of mainstream media.

You’re complaining about other fans enjoying themselves in a way you don’t like.

Does it suck that the whole fucking Historia fandom would prefer shipping her with every single male character over her ending up with a girlfriend? Yes.

Does shouting at the people who still know how to have fun change how much that sucks? Not really.

Look. I hate this fandom. With all of my fucking heart. I don’t belong in it. People don’t like me, and none of the things I care about are things that it values. I spend every second I’m forced to think about this fandom consumed with hatred for life in general. Is that healthy? No. Hence the leaving.

Don’t take away people’s joy. Ever. Even if it’s for something you hate. They need it just as badly as you need yours.

Find your joy again instead of trying to tear someone else’s down. If you succeed, you ruin someone’s day/week/life. If you don’t, they’ll probably create more of that thing you hate. Which doesn’t help you in any way, shape, or form.

I would kill to find a reasonable discussion about wanting Historia to be a lesbian and being disappointed that fandom has zero interest in that. I would kill to find a serious discussion on how fucked up it is that the manga appears to have killed her girlfriend off-screen and impregnated her. Regardless of anything else, she is queer. Hell, she could be head over heels in love with NPC Farmer Guy, and she’d still be queer, and the narrative problems with her arc as it appears would still be worthy of critical discussion.

And instead of that content existing, people keep screaming at fans of a non-canon m/f pairing.

Which, even if it were canon, would be a jerk move.

Pairings being canon means that you can shout about them without hating their fanbase. That’s really the only change, but it is a significant one. When a pairing is canon, that means shouting about it is shouting about canon. When pairings aren’t canon, shouting about them means that you are shouting at their fanbase.

One of those is okay. Unless the shouting leads to direct content with the creators. The other is straight up being a dick.

Not everyone who likes m/f is homophobic. Hell, some people just like Eren and Historia together. Is that a fun thought? No. Is Eren the only character Historia has significant canon interaction with? Pretty fucking much. People will ship anything that stands in the same room long enough. It comes down to personal preference.

Most people do not have personal preferences that lead them to f/f. It sucks. Shouting about it is not going to change that. You can talk about why that is, and why misogyny and homophobia combine with discussion of queer female characters and why that doubly sucks.

People will still ship the thing you don’t like.

At best, you might make them feel ashamed about it.

Awesome. More people feeling like they’re not allowed to love the things they love.

Historia Reiss is a queer character. The entire fandom regularly screams about how she never actually had feelings for Ymir. Currently, her arc involves her girlfriend dying off-screen while she herself is coerced into pregnancy.

So, you know. Let’s complain about how people want Eren and Historia to bang. That’s clearly the problem.

Again, I hate the ship! I hate that half its shippers appear to be following me and I have no idea why (....no offense, I’m sure you’re all wonderful people, I just have a lot of hate I’m really sorry thanks for the likes)! I hate that it’s difficult to find fans who want Historia to be gay! I hate that the one person I’ve seen wanting her to be asexual said that Ymir and Historia weren’t canon! I hate that before I left, every single damn fan of Historia who cared about Historia as a person, not an accessory, seemed to be cheering for the possibility of Eren and Historia!

But you know what I hate most?

I can’t find anyone who feels that way who has remembered to treat their fellow fans with respect. The people I know who have my preferences? I know that because they scream and shout at people. They tag their hate, they send anonymous messages, and generally make people feel like garbage for enjoying a thing.

I can’t even want Ymir and Historia to end up together without feeling guilty, because I know if that happens, everyone who happens to like a m/f ship involving Historia is going to get crapped on.

I’ve wanted Historia to be a lesbian since I started this series, and I am now in a place where I feel bad for wanting that, because the people interested in her being other sections of the spectrum get treated so terribly.

The honest truth is that I left the fandom because psychologically, I am a disaster, and everything being shouted back and forth hit too close to home. I can’t handle it. I don’t expect to ever touch it again outside of my bubble, because every brush I’ve had with it since makes me miserable.

What triggered this mess of temper was one of my friends commenting that someone I know got hate for making some kind of graphic. He used hyperbolic language about how “oh so they did this so that means they’re murdering gay people.”

I don’t hold that against him, but the reason it set me off is because the perception is that people upset with Historia being the m/f bicycle of the fandom are whiny brats who deserve to be unhappy and are overreacting to homophobia that doesn’t exist.

And it’s just... anon hate is never okay. It helps nothing, and hurts people. Including the people sending it. Putting that darkness in your soul into action is just going to make it worse.

But part of what that hate has done is... it’s made it so the loudest voices of the people upset over Historia and the problems with her treatment are anonymous haters who make people who like the wrong ship cry.

That. is not a helping thing.

Historia’s portrayal in the manga is a damn concerning thing. The fact that people still argue that she never had feelings for Ymir is a very concerning thing.

The fact that people ship her with Eren might be frustrating, and even hurtful with the reminder that the majority of the fandom definitely does not want Historia to be gay, but it is very much not the thing to be loud and worried over (especially because, again, non-canon, so you’re really just picking on the fanbase itself, which has zero point except for meanness).

Maybe I’m imagining it, since I left. Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, since my little corner is so distant.

But what it feels like is that people complaining about homophobia has become synonymous with whiny brats with no respect for fandom boundaries. Because the people complaining about homophobia loudest are acting like whiny brats with no respect for fandom boundaries.

And that is a problem.

Homophobia still exists. Lesbophobia still exists. Biphobia still exists. From my limited contact before I left, I know that those last two are at war instead of holding hands, because they’ve fundamentally misunderstood what each side is upset about.

(Side bar I guess: People upset about lesbophobia are upset about lesbians being treated like crap. People upset about biphobia are upset about bisexuals being treated like crap.

Not wanting a queer female character to like men does not equal hating bisexuals. Wanting a queer female character to like men does not equal hating lesbians.

Meanwhile, at this point, if Historia is ever given a canon sexual identity beyond liking Ymir, a lot of people are going to be hurt for personal reasons that have nothing to do with their respect for various sexualities. Having your hopes dashed sucks. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. You should be allowed to feel however you want about fiction in peace.

Which leads us back to me wanting Historia to just fucking die so that no side will ever have the option of harassing another because “ha ha we were right you all suck.”

Just. Just kill the queer. It will be so much less awful that way. Kill her now.

I need this series to end and the tags to accidentally be deleted. Or on purpose, whatever works.)

Going back to... yeah.

As much as we all like to think we’re reasonable people who use our heads, when something does not actively affect you, it is easy to start taking it as seriously as you take that thing’s spokesperson.

So the fact that the apparent spokespeople for lesbophobia in the SnK fandom are a bunch of rabid anons lacking in basic respect?

That... is really sadness-inducing.

You’ve taken an understandable pain and twisted it into a frothing hate that does nothing but hurt people.

Please don’t do that.

Be hurt. Be upset.

But be kind. For the sake of yourselves, and for the sake of the things you’re trying to champion. It’ll go better.

(...And on that note, I’m really sorry for all the yelling. Which probably made a few people who didn’t deserve it feel bad. I am just a very angry person, and. ...When I say I left for a reason, this is that reason. Every behavior I’m critical of is something I have felt a thousand times worse in my heart. I want to be a bad person more than anyone in this damn fandom.

But sorry for the yelling. I know most of you guys have nothing to do with any of this. Hell, I’m not even in the fandom, so who knows if what I’m screaming about is accurate.)

[elizabethrobertajones]

You know, I desperately want Destiel to be end game as much as anybody, but somedays I think I would just be content if the show just textually acknowledged that Dean's bi. Something as simple as a dude at a bar asking Dean to come home w/ him while they're on a case and Dean saying something like "any other day I'd take you up on that but I can't tonight." IDK the subtext that Dean is bi is strong enough that I can't say the GA would be shocked by it and it would just be a nice textual nugget.

Hey, sorry it took so long to answer this, I’ve not been at my best for ages… Been thinking about this all week though :P 

I think it feels to me like the general audience can discard or mentally discredit an AWFUL lot of implication and direct hints - there have been comments and moments in many bits of media which imply directly or with heavy innuendo that a character may be interested in a non-hetero way to someone - especially things like teasy moments… 

Thinking of things like in HIMYM there’s an ongoing joke about Lily having a crush on Robin, but since she’s with Marshall the entire show, it doesn’t really go anywhere, and when they do kiss the dynamic swaps and Robin is left with kind of a crush on her and Lily’s over it and it’s all a joke, and even though they kissed it was a lol girls kissing is hot joke for the whole show, and it never turned into a discussion of sexuality, even if they would both happily stay married in their heterosexual marriages. (And… Uh. Robin stays married okay, I’m pretty sure that was the alternate ending in the DVD unless I hallucinated it out of sheer frustration >.>) Anyway to me it seems pretty natural to read both of them a little queer to full on bi, and if it had gone even a little bit differently Lily especially could be good representation for a bi woman in a relationship with a man who just happens to have ended up falling in love with him and that’s normal and doesn’t invalidate her sexuality? But yeah. No such nuance, so this whole thing barely registers for people and in general people would think it’s all a joke. 

I mean, even Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which is where that Getting Bi song comes from, has an episode where the main character has a huge rival-crush on the girlfriend of the guy she’s into, and gets so into her she even kisses her, but there’s no exploration of what that means to her and when her boss comes out as bi with that number, no exploration of if she might be as well, even if all these characters eventually might feel more comfortable defining themselves as straight it’s just weird to me there’s all these jokes about it which can go as far as kisses, use overly romantic language or a long-running joke of Lily heavily coming onto Robin or something, and yet unless you’re like a magpie collecting all this stuff it’s all still just noise. 

I bet a ton of people would not even have considered the characters were not-straight, even when directly pointing their eyes at this moment, consider it all as a joke or that it’s just something straight people do sometimes because of the cultural massive repression of bisexuality and the indications in more liberal times and places that when polled people will be majority queer to straight with at least some bi leanings… There’s all these headlines about gen Z being the gayest generation yet, but it’s not something in the water, it’s that previous generations have never dared be as open or consider that they’re non-straight, especially if they are easily attracted to people heterosexually… 

I think the Aaron scene was 90% of the way to what you are describing, minus Dean giving him a raincheck overtly, and Aaron admits it was a ruse before any further tension can follow. I think, having snooped a lot of blog archives in my time, that really was a turning point that got a lot of people convinced of the textual possibilities, especially with the director/writer commentary basically confirming it. And obviously it didn’t work to make EVERYONE see it, although fandom swelled that season and it was a very dramatic moment in the history of bi!Dean and Destiel within fandom. 

To give another example from outside the show, I’ve been watching Black Sails with my friend, who is very straight in mindset, and - major spoilers for that show ahead - the main character is confirmed to be overtly queer in the  middle of the second season. I think I know exactly the point I would have picked up this was a queer narrative in the first season, and what would have made me suspicious about the mysteriously un-revealed backstory. The build up to the reveal was amazing in the second season and I think if you didn’t get it you really need to do a rewatch, because my friend was utterly blindsided by the revelation, only catching on a scene before it happened (she does like guessing and is smart at TV if she knows all the cues to start with). But she’s - sorry - at sea with the character’s motivations and reasons, and understands his earlier actions almost completely backwards to me as she took him on face value for far too long without suspecting there was more than treasure and restoring his name on order, and not understanding his motives to be so political or to want to burn the entire system down or his utter alienation from the system; even after the reveal she didn’t understand the degree to which things were on the line or the forces pressuring him one way or the other. 

(I find it really interesting and I’m not really disagreeing with her, I’m curious how the surface layer all reads tbh :P) 

In any case, I don’t really have much confidence in a wider general audience taking throwaway moments to be full canon, and generally would need declarations and inescapable discussion or plot arcs for it. I think in some ways the trail is being blazed now - when Rosa came out as bi in b99 it had a sort of special episode educating you on it as much as being very sympathetic for bi people to watch and see literally a bulletpoint list of their issues and weird things people say about it acted out on screen. The subplot is basically the masterclass in addressing it. 

(So is the Getting Bi song :P although it covers less of the issues overall, it does make it fun and normalises the idea into a dance routine and deals with someone discovering the label for themselves and being thrilled it makes their life make sense.) 

I don’t think spn should do anything quite so specific or hilarious, but I love @bluestar86‘s concept of an episode which uses flashbacks to reveal Dean’s bisexuality - basically like with Robin in 9x07, but I think even just showing it was a childhood crush and he never figured it all out at the time but meeting the guy later in life makes things make a lot of sense or something… And we already have a template for that without going all the way into it with his reaction to meeting Gunnar Lawless, a childhood celebrity crush. So there’s paths to take which could do it.

But ultimately I think the issue is so messed up and tangled into the main arc that it would be next to impossible to confirm Dean is bi without having an utter drama about why not Destiel, as the two concepts are not, at this point, really separate or that you could have one without the other, though it would be easier to not address Dean’s sexuality in any way of assigning labels or having more than the immediately necessary self-reflection to deal with feelings for Cas without exploring deeper… (Not that I like that idea, it’s just, they could, you know? Not even in a “i don’t like labels” way but just something like Dean going “huh” and then getting together with Cas and literally no one ever makes a fuss or starts up a dialogue about why they’re now holding hands :P) 

But it’s been such a ridiculous, epic, drawn out relationship on screen that making Dean bi independent of Cas would seem bizarre and off-balance without addressing his relationship to Cas. Just because they have such an intense relationship, and within the text of the show are many many references to their relationship on many different levels, from snide comments to enormous declarations. None of this happens in isolation to other storylines or character depth. With the momentum and depth it has in the story, making Dean bi would be seen as a precursor to Destiel, and at this point cruel and strange not to address it and would beg the question of why they ever confirmed him bi in the first place, if not to leave the ship unresolved to the end but to be open for us to imagine it might happen one day when the story is over - or not, if we don’t ship it, and it’s the way to thread a needle to try and keep everyone happy. Which I’m not sure would work except for the people who very specifically would advocate for bi Dean but don’t think a ship is necessary. I mean, I know that’s a chunk of the Dean fandom, and it’s a valid way to read the text, and of course a lot of Destiel shippers are fully aware Dean is bi without any special interference from Cas about that :P 

And, I mean, in the same way, Cas’s story isn’t ALL about Dean and he has a lot of personal growth that doesn’t have to do with him or happens in spite of him in some cases. But it’s still inextricable from Cas’s character how much he loves Dean and how much Dean has meant to him, and they crossed the line of Cas loving Dean, unrequited or not, a long time ago, and Cas has been existing in a subtextual agony of being in love with Dean but seemingly unrequited for a very long time now, as that line was crossed before several season renewals made it  a painful wait for him. This doesn’t exist in a void to Dean’s sexuality either. 

So, I mean, I don’t know. I disagree with you about the general audience thing entirely, and I think this exchange you imagine could easily be absorbed by the GA to not really credit it as a full part of Dean’s character, laugh it off as a joke from him no matter how seriously he delivers it, and generally not remember him as a bisexual character. Because to straight viewers, they aren’t seeking out sexuality hints and confirmations, and such things don’t really affect their view of a character unless it becomes a textual romance. It has all the meaning sucked from it by their lack of interest and inability to sympathetically mould the character’s inner life based on their own experiences that match. If they’re not making a study of the character, these things can be dismissed as white noise, and in a few years time, a Buzzfeed article of “10 Pop Culture Characters You Never Knew Were Gay!” or something.

And it’s like, yes. We knew. We knew all along. We knew before it happened. But that doesn’t affect how people think of it.

So it feels to me like the only way if they wanted to make a real point of Dean being bi is to have the frank discussion, and devote a proper subplot amount of time to Dean’s sexuality, enough that it is clear and inescapably affecting him, or to confirm it via a relationship which would in this case conveniently by answered by the angel he’s been subtextually pining for for years, and who has his own arc of being pretty overtly in love with Dean to answer… should the show decide to go with addressing Dean’s sexuality, they have put a LOT of work into having this relationship ready and waiting, I’m just saying :P And if they only had an Aaron but x10 scene, it would STILL not really affect anything except layers below GA  - there’ll be more queer viewers who see it for the first time, and within these four walls it will obviously never be forgotten and will be a huge part of how Dean is celebrated by fandom, but I just can’t see it making an impact unless it’s more than a passing moment, because those get swallowed by a heteronormative void…